A Call to Center Poverty in the Occupy Movement Discourse
~ An Interview with Professor David Van Arsdale
Professor David Van Arsdale shares his thoughts on the Occupy Movement with interviewer Erik LaFavor, a student at the State University of New York, Tompkins Cortland Community College. In the end, he encourages the movement to focus its discourse on ending poverty.
Erik: How would you describe the movement’s organization? Is it more centralized or spontaneous?
David: It’s neither centralized nor spontaneous. Certainly the coming together of momentum from the student youth movement in Europe, to widespread Arab democratic movements, to a fight back against the hijacking of democracy and collective bargaining in the workplace here in the US, especially in Wisconsin, helped fuel the success of Occupy Wall Street and subsequent occupations. That corporations continue to achieve record profits in the face of recession and widespread unemployment and unstable low-paid work, has also helped motivate occupiers. Yes, it is true that the Ad Buster’s announcement for occupation deserves credit, but it is the times in which we live that has allowed the call to transform into a movement. The youth have especially awoken. They’ve awoke to the incredible economic inequities of these times. They’ve awoke to the anomie in their lives, particularly that created by the false promise that corporations and their goods can satisfy our deepest desires. They’ve awoke to the fact that owning the “right” commodities, for example, doesn’t make up for not being able to afford education, or for the loss of time and energy experienced when working two or three part-time jobs. They’ve awoke to the fact that without a say in how much they work and by what conditions, they will face a life of financial struggle and precarious employment. I think it’s one of the under-spoken motivators of the occupy movement: the thievery of the workday from ordinary citizens. Few workers these days have a say in negotiating their work-time or status. We just can’t continue to work two and three part-time or temporary jobs. Particularly when the corporations we work for make record profits from our temporary and part-time work statuses.
No Erik, I would stress that the movement is not spontaneous. A lot of ground work has gone into teaching young people about the issues. And the youth are studying political-economy with a fervor I’ve not witnessed in a decade of teaching. For example, many in the labor movement, including the President of the AFL-CIO Richard Trumka, and countless scholars, I was one of them, got together in the spring of 2011 to do a Nation-wide teach-in on the state of the economy, globalization, and workplace democracy. Colleges across the country participated. The result was that many of the student participants created their own occupations or joined other occupation or labor movements. Here in Syracuse, for example, the students from the three area colleges that participated in the teach-in joined forces at the Syracuse occupation site and solidarity movements beyond. I would therefore argue, Erik, that what is now called the “Occupation Movement” has been the coming together of many groups who are rightfully disgruntled with the incredible inequities being generated by the current state of global capitalism. The movement has, furthermore, been incredibly successful at helping all occupiers adopt a governing framework of daily assemblies where decisions are made via consensus. This has allowed for a general democratic framework at encampments across the globe and has helped groups remain tethered both to local interests and the larger movement. To conclude, I think it’s important to see the movement as a many-headed one, and framed around one major issue: an unbearable inequality of wealth on a global scale, caused by contemporary global financial and corporate capitalism. The many-headed is important — it means that it’s highly organized. Not a march has taken place without massive organization. That said, there are many lessons to take in at this point, both in terms of successes and failures.
Erik: Perhaps we should get to some of those issues. Critics have argued that the Occupy movement is disorganized, based on your participation how would you respond to these criticisms?
David: Whoever says that the occupation movement is disorganized doesn’t know what in the world they are talking about. The amount of organization and democratic processes that have taken place in the movement, and at almost every encampment, is mind-blowing. I would encourage you to think critically about the importance of online communication in conjuring-up and organizing the movement. How many volumes of email exchanges, facebooking, blogging, videos, conferencing, text messaging, debating, etc. have gone into making this movement successful, and global, I might add. Has the planet ever seen such a girth of information in such a short period of time from the insiders of a movement as it has with occupation? Perhaps not. At the same time, the movement often looks unorganized to onlookers because it unfolds much like the Arab spring — via momentum building that often takes place through online media by many varied people and groups. The rapid exchange of information, like a police brutality incident for example, can often ignite a march. But still, I believe we must realize that often many actors in the movement are spreading images and discourse online in order to build it. Information doesn’t travel through the web all by itself. There are people behind tweets, the Youtube videos, and the Facebook messages. This is organization and people are making decisions about sharing this information and how to share it. And I believe that by in large actors in the movement are sharing the information because they want to curb a system generating the greatest amount of inequality the world has ever known. It is from that place — a place of consciousness, of values, of policy needs, that discourse and images become sparks that unite marches and grow the movement. The result is the largest ever youth movement, in terms of scope, the world has known. I believe there are now occupations in nearly 200 countries. The movement, therefore, Erik, all of its actions and all of its successes, has to do strategic decisions. Decisions made by real people. A lot of real people.
Erik: How open is the movement to different ideas?
David: Open. For the most part, an attempt is made to make decisions at encampments through consensus. This is partly why the movement has generated historic volumes of ideas on how to organize and reorganize society. The movement has no shortage of ideas. And the thing about consensus government is that it takes time. We are dealing with a global economy here. The movement needs to be sure that its approach to solving historic inequities is poignant and can be lasting. Indeed, consensus takes a long time. Every idea has to be debated, and therefore, it’s a lengthy process. I’d also like to think it’s a process that tends to work well at weeding-out “bad ideas,” but there are a lot of reports out there citing the corruption of consensus at particular encampments. Certainly the charismatic power of an individual and other forms of authority can corrupt consensus, as it can with democracy, as we know many times over from history. This is why it’s important to remain steadfast with commitment to consensus decision-making. If people get discouraged by idiots who push their agenda and leave the process, the process is doomed to fail. For the most part, I believe that consensus governing has worked well at encampments. Furthermore, it seems there is strong anecdotal evidence suggesting that when encampments remained tied (virtually or otherwise) to other encampments, and the movement at large, the authority of the movement often triumphed over corrupt individual or brut power. These questions are very important to study: 1) the relationship of the effectiveness of consensus to scale, geography and geo-ideology and 2) whether forms of consensus government are more or less effective at trumping corrupt charismatic individuals and their ideology than forms of democratic government. That said, for now I believe that movement needs to continue to engage debate, but the debate needs to move from an issues debate to a tactics debate. Which I’m hoping we can discuss shortly.
Erik: How has the movement responded to groups wanting to claim Occupy as their own?
David: Get lost! That’s an inadequate answer, Erik. But as we have said, on local-scales there have been those actors that have tried to take-over encampments, sometimes pushing their own issues, and other times pushing their need for power. It’s been a bit more difficult to claim ownership of the movement on a larger scale. It’s just so big now that no one can rightfully claim that it’s success doesn’t isn’t about the incredible and blatant inequities between the owners of global capitalism, corporations and banks, and ordinary citizens.
Erik: Okay then, so what about Occupy’s weaknesses at this point?
David: The movement needs to become more focused on poverty. I often feel like I’m on an island with this criticism. I strongly believe that the discourse of the movement needs to focus more on contemporary poverty and the state of working people. We have record poverty in the US — 46.2 million poor people according to our own government. Given the government-backed hegemonic war against private sector unions and workplace democracies, workers have lost control of negotiating their value and work-time. Temporary work status, now over half of all US workers, is more popular than full-time work status for the first time since the end of slavery. Temporary employment agencies act like worker “auction blocks,” workers are literally sold off by agencies, and often purchased because of their workers status, ethnicity, age, gender, etc. Indeed, unemployed and underemployed workers are sold freely at temporary agencies to companies that want to take advantage of their flexible work status, meaning their inability to have a say in their value as workers or work-time. Many temporary firms that supply workers are some of the largest employers across the globe — Trublue and Kelly Services, for example. They have helped create and sustain an incredible thirst for temporary workers among employers. Workers have been the losers: their wages have decreased significantly and it’s incredibly difficult to organize workers when everyone is a temp desperate to be dispatched to a job in order to sustain life. Certainly the result has been an incredible proliferation of poverty. The occupation movement needs to center these struggles and the struggles of poor people. We need to center poverty, and that which causes it, in our discourse. Attacking unemployment without understanding the state of employment doesn’t do us much good.
What does an unemployment rate of 9% mean in a world where employment means one works 10 or 20 hours a week often at minimum or near minimum wage? We are using the unemployment rate to understand whether our economy is healthy while understanding what has happened to employment would help us more. Poverty has increased steadily in the last two decades, even with so-called “job growth.” That’s because, as stated, the jobs we are growing render poverty wages. I live in a City, for example, with a median household income of $25,000, down considerably, in real dollars, from where it was two decades ago. Furthermore, Syracuse has two urban tracks with average annual family incomes under $10,000 a year. Why? Syracuse lost a half dozen large companies that employed tens of thousands of workers who earned middle-class incomes. At the same time, the overall unemployment rate remained in check, as workers transitioned to part-time and temporary work. It is a surprise that many of the kids from neighborhoods who overwhelming depend on temporary and part-time work don’t make it through high school? Is that really a surprise? Three-quarters of their household income goes to rent and housing costs. Try living on $2,500 a year for everything else a family needs and see how it goes. Anyhow, so far, the Occupation Movement has mostly focused on critiquing the wealthy and their tactics of accumulation of wealth. After all, their tactics are so obviously unfair it’s difficult to not focus on them. For example, sub-prime mortgage rates and the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999, allowing big banks, commercial banks, investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies to consolidate and invest all holdings on Wall Street and other global markets.
How can Occupy become a movement of and for poor and working people? Until the movement realizes that the future of equality, and the future of building a strong middle class, rests in ending poverty, and the current epidemic of low-wage part-time and temporary work, I believe we’ll have a difficult time making real, substantial structural change. In other words, until we are all clear that poverty — both here and abroad given the global state of capitalism — is the reason d’être of the accumulation of wealth among the rich, we cannot successfully change the system. Ending poverty will do more to build a strong middle-class than attacking the rich or getting the rich to pay more taxes. I do worry that we may settle for new taxes on the rich, restrictions of corporate power and banks, etc., as opposed to the changes most working and poor people are desperate for: an end to the incredible stress and discomfort that wrecks havoc in our lives — unstable work, income, housing, schooling, family time, leisure, etc.
Indeed, the movement has to begin to change the Occupy discourse from an attack on the rich to an attack on the proliferation of poverty. It’s hard to win a war against the rich, whether ideological or otherwise, in a country and world obsessed with wealth. It goes against generations of training that has stressed the values of capitalism and individuality. Wealth is viewed, especially by the poor in the US, as the answer to poverty. This is why so many poor and working people in the US vote against their self-interest when they vote for an anti-union, small-government republican party. The poor believe in one’s ability to be rich. It’s our answer to poverty. It’s why, I suppose, we play the lotto so religiously. Wealth is a sign of success, perhaps even, as Max Weber showed us in the Protestant Ethic and Spirit of Capitalism, a measure of one’s worth in some fantastical grander way. I believe therefore that the movement needs to center its discourse and policy on ending poverty. Without poverty, with free and affordable liberating education, we will regain dignity and the energy to take on some of our globe’s other major questions: global environmental health and sustainability and how to create a world where wage-labor no longer dictates one’s quality of life. Certainly given rapid technological advances in production, this world is coming. A world with far less wage-labor is coming. And I’m not sure we should resist it. But we will need to be assured a solid quality of life and status by other means. I suggest, perhaps, art and intellect. And by art I mean in the most broadest since, from brick laying to oil on canvas to music to the healing and medicinal arts. There is much we can become when wage-labor no longer dictates our well-beings and statuses.
At any rate, poor and working class folk need to join the occupation movement. I believe this will happen if the movement can center a discourse against poverty and its growth. The movement desperately needs poor and working class people in order to help it make more than superficial policy shifts like an increased tax on the rich. The movement desperately needs them to turn their anger and alienation into action and solidarity with the Occupation so that structural shifts ending poverty and the high cost of quality education can be accomplished.
Lastly, in terms of criticisms, while the movement is widespread, at this point, I think we do need to realize that our power beyond discourse is in question. I have come to see from where the logic of the criticism comes. In many ways, we need to understand that the movement has been rather successfully contained by police and state apparatus. This could certainly change this spring and summer (2012). But it won’t change unless the movement studies and resolves the question of whether the current containment of the movement – both in its action and political forms – has to do with its chosen tactics of protest. It’s another important question to contemplate and resolve.

The poverty rate is a stronger indicator of the true employment situation. However, Democrats and Republicans will continue to shun poverty as an indicator of the health of the economy. To admit that we are a country with too much poverty and growing poorer would be to admit that the kinds of jobs currently sustaining our country are not adequate.


